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Hawaiian Hospitality Group Inc (CE)

Hawaiian Hospitality Group Inc (CE) (HHGI)

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XenaLives XenaLives 5 years ago
Haraburda should be in prison.

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rudik rudik 5 years ago
This sucker rip banch of people 10 years ego so go and try your luck , you may get in but never be able to get out
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buxmaker buxmaker 5 years ago
What is up with HHGI? The stock has exploded over the last few weeks and no one is talking about it.
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rudik rudik 6 years ago
Who the heck trades this shit?
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Stockinator Stockinator 7 years ago
this is a super low float -- any news here?
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Stock_Barber Stock_Barber 7 years ago
"What happened here?"

A failed scam...

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CaptainPenguin CaptainPenguin 7 years ago
News coming soon? Trading 2 days in a row with big volume and movement?
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CaptainPenguin CaptainPenguin 7 years ago
What happened here?
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XenaLives XenaLives 9 years ago
Haraburda SEC sanctions -broke- HHGI is worthless.

http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/2015/lr23321.htm
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XenaLives XenaLives 10 years ago
Looks like this one may finally get delisted.

Fingers crossed X.
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XenaLives XenaLives 10 years ago
GeckoSystems has no relationship to HHGI or Haraburda. George MacLeod referred GeckoSystems to Big Apple to set them up for his con, but they failed to do proper DD in the International Shoe RM Big Apple got ripped off too. But does crook robs crook count?

Apparently MacLeod was furious when he found up that Big Apple messed up his deal -

Here's the decision NY court case Big Apple Consulting V. Belmont Partners that conclusively proves that GeckoSystems had nothing to do with Haraburda or Belmont:

http://decisions.courts.state.ny.us/10jd/nassau/decisions/index/index_new/austin/2008sept/023105-07.pdf

Anyone who was involved in this transaction would be fully aware of this and the fact that GeckoSystems finally went public through FINRA 15c-211. There is no relationship between HHGI and Haraburda and GeckoSystems.

GeckoSystems is a valid business enterprise that operated for nine years as a private company before even attempting to go public.
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XenaLives XenaLives 10 years ago
IMTD is HHGI - Same CEO, same SEC CIK.

If you look back in the financials for HHGI you find IMTD.
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XenaLives XenaLives 10 years ago

This one smells like dead fish -

Here's an old pump post...

IMTD – Our New Stock Pick
0 comments

Posted by Bob Wilcox on Oct 25, 2007 in Articles | 0 comments
We announced IMTD to our premium members last week. It still looks promising at these prices.
Visit www.pennystockforums.net to discuss this pick and other penny stocks.

ImagiTrend, Inc. is a development-stage Company that specializes in developing and marketing pet products and consumer products. ImagiTrend currently owns interest in two companies: Eternal Gems, which has a unique process for creating durable and attractive pet memorial products; and The Hollywood Movie Machine, which has an exclusive license on technology to place individual customers in to film clips of movies, television shows, and other video footage. The Hollywood Movie Machine has also developed and licensed interactive home consumer entertainment products and software.

Outstanding Shares153,000,000 as of Aug 23, 2007
Authorized Shares490,000,000 as of Aug 23, 2007

This stock should head much higher once an acquisition is announced. Until then it trades under $.001, which considering the current share structure, is a very good price. The same holds true for IMTD as any of our other picks. Do your own DD before deciding to take a position. There is a chance this stock could fall even further before heading higher.
Trading strategy for IMTD
Look for an entry under $.001 and hold for acquisition news – then sell as the stock appreciates in value.
This is all hypothetical of course. There is no guarantee any acquisition news will ever be released. Like any Pink Sheet stock this one is a gamble, so don’t risk more than you can afford to lose.
As always we picked IMTD based on our own opinions and DD.

ImagiTrend, Inc. Enters Final Stage of Acquisition StrategyTuesday October 16, 2:49 pm ET
SARASOTA, Fla., Oct. 16, 2007 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) — ImagiTrend, Inc. (Other OTC:IMTD.PK – News) is pleased to announce that the Company is in the final stages of performing its due diligence on several potential acquisition candidates. Over the last several months the Company has been targeting a number of companies in a variety of industries The overall goal of the Company is also to conduct an extensive evaluation of a number of potential partners as well. ImagiTrend has setup an acquisition strategy to acquire businesses fitting the Company’s vision for expanding into several key markets including energy conservation, medical, and specialty packaging areas. ImagiTrend previously announced the receipt of several letters of intent from well-established businesses, and is expecting to sign contracts in the near future.
“We are very close to finalizing agreements with strong companies in a variety of industries. We believe we have taken the correct steps to benefit our Company as well as our shareholders,’’ stated Russell Haraburda, President and CEO of ImagiTrend, Inc.
ImagiTrend, Inc. recently announced that Mr. Ted Yardley has been appointed as President of Eternal Gems, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of ImagiTrend. Mr. Yardley has spent the majority of his career in the mining business as the President and CEO of Doron Explorations, Wind River Resources and Swift Minerals, which are all publicly traded companies.

ImagiTrend Clarifies Current Capital StructureFriday August 31, 11:59 am ET
SARASOTA, Fla., Aug. 31, 2007 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) — ImagiTrend, Inc. (Other OTC:IMTD.PK – News) announced today that the number of authorized shares is significantly lower than what is currently being displayed on http://www.pinksheets.com/. The updated authorized share count, as of today, is 490 million shares. ImagiTrend, Inc. has also relocated the Company’s state of incorporation from Washington, D.C. to the state of Wyoming.
“It has come to my attention that there was a bit of misinformation regarding the capital structure of our Company floating around. We’ve received some concerned questions from investors, some of whom believed the number of authorized shares to be as high as 1.5 billion. I want to take this opportunity to clarify that our current capital structure is 490 million authorized shares and we are currently working with pinksheets.com to correct the dated information,’’ stated Russell Haraburda, President and CEO of ImagiTrend, Inc.
ImagiTrend, Inc. recently announced that the Company has appointed Mr. Rajendra Prasad as the first member of its new Advisory Board. Mr. Prasad brings a decade of financial experience in investments and debt consolidation. He currently serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Diversified Portfolio Management, Inc., a management company that provides consultation and financial services through its affiliation with various partners.
The function of the new Advisory Board is to advise the Company on strategic planning and new product development. Mr. Prasad will also be assisting the Company in maximizing its profits and returns to stockholders. He will utilize his skills assisting in the strategic development of the other two companies under the ImagiTrend Inc. umbrella, which includes the Hollywood Movie Machine, Inc. and Eternal Gems.



http://thepennystockgurus.com/2007/10/
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XenaLives XenaLives 10 years ago
Big Apple - sold this shell and then tried to keep all of the shares (and the company). It became Imagitrend and Castle Technologies because GeckoSystems walked out on them.

Big Apple's website is offline now because you can only find them in the Federal Court docket.

http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=72104402


Source: Castle Technologies, Inc.
Date: June 27, 2007 13:24 ET
GeckoSystems, Inc. Changes Name to ImagiTrend, Inc.

WASHINGTON, June 27, 2007 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- GeckoSystems, Inc. (Pink Sheets:GKSY) is pleased to announce that as of yesterday, June 26, 2007, the Company has changed its name to ImagiTrend, Inc. The Company is currently in the process of changing its trading symbol and CUSIP number.

ImagiTrend is a Company specializing in the development and marketing of a diverse line of products for consumers. The Company currently retains interest in two very unique businesses and is planning additional acquisitions in the future.

"Our new name now reflects our corporate mission to develop and grow companies with imaginative products and services," stated Russell Haraburda, President and CEO of ImagiTrend, Inc.

ImagiTrend, Inc. recently announced that the Company has appointed Mr. Russell Haraburda as President and Chief Executive Officer. Russell Haraburda has served as CEO of Vista Partners since 1995. Over the past 20 years, Mr. Haraburda has successfully implemented several acquisitions, has been instrumental in sourcing funds for startup ventures in the private and public sectors, and has created public awareness of a number of small cap companies throughout the United States and worldwide. His experience has led to the successful development and growth of many publicly traded companies such as Inktomi and Liquid Golf.

About ImagiTrend, Inc.:

ImagiTrend, Inc. is a development-stage Company, which specializes in developing and marketing pet products and consumer products. ImagiTrend currently owns interest in two companies: Eternal Gems, which has a unique process for creating durable and attractive pet memorial products; and The Hollywood Movie Machine, which has an exclusive license on technology to place individual customers in to film clips of movies, television shows, and other video footage. The Hollywood Movie Machine has also developed and licensed interactive home consumer entertainment products and software. ImagiTrend plans to continue looking for new and intuitive marketing concepts to bring to market under the guidance of ImagiTrend.

Safe Harbor Statement under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995: The statements, other than the statements of historical facts, contained in this release which are not historical facts may be deemed to contain forward-looking statements with respect to events, the occurrence of which involves risk and uncertainties, including, without limitation, demand and competition for the Company's products and services, the availability to the Company of adequate financing to support its anticipated activities, the ability of the Company to generate cash flow from operations and the ability of the Company to manage its operations.

To automatically receive instant updates, press releases, and other information on this and other Big Apple Consulting USA companies, please visit www.bigappleconsulting.com/compro.php and download your FREE copy of Big Apple ComPro.

CONTACT: ImagiTrend, Inc.
Investor Relations
1-866-THE-APPL(E)



http://www.globenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=122066
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XenaLives XenaLives 10 years ago
Read the first 50 posts on this board - this shell has been dirty from the beginning.
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XenaLives XenaLives 10 years ago
HHGI - a serial scam by Haraburda -

If you go to the oldest financial on the OTC page:
http://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/HHGI/financials

You come up with a company started in 2005 called Imagitrend.
http://www.otcmarkets.com/edgar/GetFilingHtml?FilingID=3969267

Harbruda was connected with Big Apple.

Registration for the stock was withdrawn on March 8, 2007
http://www.otcmarkets.com/edgar/GetFilingHtml?FilingID=5019882
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Euripides90 Euripides90 10 years ago
What just happened here? Why the explosion? I've been stuck with this forever and now all of a sudden the bid is .001 and Ask .01???
Is this for real? Any news, or some insiders playing on fact that most PPL have low Asks and been trying to unload, shaking out their shares?

Anyone know the actual float, what's going on here???
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RonnieTSM RonnieTSM 11 years ago
Hi Fingers! I didn't know you were an HHGI'er too! What's your current take on this one? I've been stuck here since the reverse split some time ago. BTW Glad I bailed on "That other one" we were in,on Wed of this week. Hoping for similar action over here.
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rudik rudik 11 years ago
Same one throwing money way baying this crap
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infamous infamous 11 years ago
OMG this thing STILL trades? 160? Makes no sense at all. Did some MM get board and try to show a 160 share lot to make people think this still trades? thats histerical.
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robtewms robtewms 11 years ago
Thanks for info. That was nice how much information was found. I like the Secretary of State info too.
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rudik rudik 11 years ago
Check this out Kevin jasper and his mafia
http://www.justanswer.com/fraud-examiner/6htx1-insight-management-corp-isim-penny-stock-scam.html
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robtewms robtewms 11 years ago
Good call. Thanks for info.
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infamous infamous 11 years ago
Lol. I remember some years ago I talked to some lady there named Linda or Lisa something. I asked her questions about that company. She stuttered after everything I asked her and I knew she didnt know shit about what she was talking about. I sold like an hour after I talked to her.
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XenaLives XenaLives 11 years ago
No one is going to buy a Haraburda shell. Too dirty.
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Stock_Barber Stock_Barber 11 years ago
Almost none...

Unless someone buys the shell. They were a scam from head to toe...

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robtewms robtewms 11 years ago
Is there any potential for this ticker?
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Stock_Barber Stock_Barber 11 years ago
How'd that huge idea work out for you folks?

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infamous infamous 11 years ago
the funny part would be that you would owe yet another $20 to your brokerage. Yu better just get rid of it.
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amadeus amadeus 12 years ago
up 2150%? on 20k volume?
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rudik rudik 12 years ago
Same one poke a crust of that crap it may start small bad soon
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XenaLives XenaLives 12 years ago
30,000 shares worth of paint.

This shell's too dirty to be run again IMO.

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jimsdoorsmt jimsdoorsmt 12 years ago
oh yeah, I already lost my cash on this dog. I was just wondering why it jumped today.
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Stock_Barber Stock_Barber 12 years ago
Total scam... don't touch it!

North Shore Wedding Venue Linked to Man Accused of Fraud
posted by Alex Ferreras on August 3, 2012 in Scams

(Source: Andrew Gomes The Honolulu Star-Advertiser (MCT) — Loulu Palm Estate LLC on Oahu’s North Shore is a picturesque setting for weddings but also appears connected to unsightly stock fraud allegations that recently led to a U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission complaint.
The property was an editor’s pick this year for best Hawaii wedding venues by wedding industry publication The Knot, joining a list of top venues that include the Halekulani Hotel in Waikiki and The Fairmont Orchid resort on Hawaii island.

Loulu Palm’s parent company, Hawaiian Hospitality Group Inc., is financially intertwined with several companies set up by Hale­iwa resident Nicholas Louis Geranio, who was charged in May with defrauding overseas investors of $35 million.

The SEC alleges Geranio deceived investors by coordinating a scheme to sell stock in the firms based on lies about their operations and manipulated prices. Between April 2007 and September 2009, Geranio founded eight small companies and arranged to have sales agents pressure overseas investors to buy shares of the so-called “penny stock” companies, the SEC said. The stock was manipulated to inflate prices and proceeds, the SEC claims.

Hawaiian Hospitality is publicly traded, but it isn’t among the businesses that the SEC alleges were used by Geranio to defraud investors. Geranio is accused of using gains from illegal activities to help establish Hawaiian Hospitality.

Hawaiian Hospitality is engaged in weddings and catering and also aims to launch minisubmarine tours. According to the company’s website, Hawaiian Hospitality is “a huge up-and-comer in the local hospitality industry.”

Geranio, who is also known as Nick Louis, helped establish Hawaiian Hospitality, the SEC said in its complaint. Most weddings hosted by Hawaiian Hospitality are held at the Loulu Palm property leased from one of the Geranio companies in the SEC complaint.

Hawaiian Hospitality representatives did not return phone calls seeking comment. Geranio could not be reached. The SEC would not comment on the ties between Hawaiian Hospitality and Geranio beyond what was included in its complaint.

The wedding and catering company was formed in August 2009, and since then has sought publicity by issuing close to 20 news releases touting a wide range of activities, including planned acquisitions, partnerships and anticipated performance.

In each of the past two years, Hawaiian Hospitality reported unaudited net losses of about $263,000 on about $500,000 of revenue primarily from the wedding operations of Loulu Palm and catering affiliate 21st Parallel Catering & Events, according to public annual reports.

The Loulu Palm property includes a five-bedroom house built in 1941 on a 35,240-square-foot parcel between Turtle Bay and Sunset Beach.

The site is touted as being a private beach setting but actually is separated from the public beach by state conservation land.

A Geranio company, BWRE Holdings LLC, contributed $250,000 as a down payment to buy the property for $2.7 million in 2008, the SEC said. According to the purchase agreement, Geranio is also the guarantor for $20,000 monthly installment payments to the seller, and full payment is due July 24.

The SEC seeks to recover alleged ill-gotten proceeds from Geranio companies, including BWRE.

Hawaiian Hospitality is obligated to pay BWRE, which is based in Hawaii, about $20,000 a month for rent, but instead has largely issued stock to BWRE, making BWRE a major shareholder in Hawaiian Hospitality, according to the company’s annual reports.

Hawaiian Hospitality reported owing BWRE $166,720 in unpaid rent and a promisory note of $175,858 at the end of last year.

Another major connection between Geranio and Hawaiian Hospitality involves the company’s plan to offer underwater tours through subsidiary Submersible Technical Services Inc.

Hawaiian Hospitality reported purchasing Submersible Technical Services, a Nevada company, using $5 million from Kaleidoscope Real Estate Inc. The deal included a pair of small submarines — a two-seater and a three-seater that Hawaiian Hospitality said were received but not yet certified for use last year.

Kaleidoscope is a Geranio company sued by the SEC in connection with the alleged stock fraud. Hawaiian Hospitality reported owing Kaleidoscope $525,201 at the end of last year for the sub company purchase. The other roughly $4.5 million Hawaiian Hospitality owed Kaleidoscope was satisfied by giving Kaleidoscope 394 million shares of stock in Hawaiian Hospitality, the company reported.

Shares of Hawaiian Hospitality stock aren’t worth much. The company has issued more than 2 billion shares since its founding, and periodically has condensed those shares to boost the value of each remaining share.

Currently there are about 875,000 shares of Hawaiian Hospitality stock outstanding, with each share worth less than one-tenth of a cent, according to Bloomberg. To put it another way, 1 cent was enough to buy 50 shares of Hawaiian Hospitality stock last week. To buy all outstanding shares in the company would cost $175.

At the end of last year, Hawaiian Hospitality reported having one paid employee, Linda Kress, a former claims coordinator with Hono­lulu insurance firm King and Neel Inc. who was named president and CEO in December 2010.

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jimsdoorsmt jimsdoorsmt 12 years ago
holy moly, up 233 percent overnight?
What is going onhere?
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XenaLives XenaLives 12 years ago
LOL! you don't believe everything you read in these newsletters, do you?

This is a scam. Read the board and you will know why.

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tydon tydon 12 years ago
Got newsletter
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tydon tydon 12 years ago
OUR HUGE STOCK IDEA is HHGI
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Stock_Barber Stock_Barber 12 years ago
North Shore Wedding Venue Linked to Man Accused of Fraud
posted by Alex Ferreras on August 3, 2012 in Scams

(Source: Andrew Gomes The Honolulu Star-Advertiser (MCT) — Loulu Palm Estate LLC on Oahu’s North Shore is a picturesque setting for weddings but also appears connected to unsightly stock fraud allegations that recently led to a U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission complaint.
The property was an editor’s pick this year for best Hawaii wedding venues by wedding industry publication The Knot, joining a list of top venues that include the Halekulani Hotel in Waikiki and The Fairmont Orchid resort on Hawaii island.

Loulu Palm’s parent company, Hawaiian Hospitality Group Inc., is financially intertwined with several companies set up by Hale­iwa resident Nicholas Louis Geranio, who was charged in May with defrauding overseas investors of $35 million.

The SEC alleges Geranio deceived investors by coordinating a scheme to sell stock in the firms based on lies about their operations and manipulated prices. Between April 2007 and September 2009, Geranio founded eight small companies and arranged to have sales agents pressure overseas investors to buy shares of the so-called “penny stock” companies, the SEC said. The stock was manipulated to inflate prices and proceeds, the SEC claims.

Hawaiian Hospitality is publicly traded, but it isn’t among the businesses that the SEC alleges were used by Geranio to defraud investors. Geranio is accused of using gains from illegal activities to help establish Hawaiian Hospitality.

Hawaiian Hospitality is engaged in weddings and catering and also aims to launch minisubmarine tours. According to the company’s website, Hawaiian Hospitality is “a huge up-and-comer in the local hospitality industry.”

Geranio, who is also known as Nick Louis, helped establish Hawaiian Hospitality, the SEC said in its complaint. Most weddings hosted by Hawaiian Hospitality are held at the Loulu Palm property leased from one of the Geranio companies in the SEC complaint.

Hawaiian Hospitality representatives did not return phone calls seeking comment. Geranio could not be reached. The SEC would not comment on the ties between Hawaiian Hospitality and Geranio beyond what was included in its complaint.

The wedding and catering company was formed in August 2009, and since then has sought publicity by issuing close to 20 news releases touting a wide range of activities, including planned acquisitions, partnerships and anticipated performance.

In each of the past two years, Hawaiian Hospitality reported unaudited net losses of about $263,000 on about $500,000 of revenue primarily from the wedding operations of Loulu Palm and catering affiliate 21st Parallel Catering & Events, according to public annual reports.

The Loulu Palm property includes a five-bedroom house built in 1941 on a 35,240-square-foot parcel between Turtle Bay and Sunset Beach.

The site is touted as being a private beach setting but actually is separated from the public beach by state conservation land.

A Geranio company, BWRE Holdings LLC, contributed $250,000 as a down payment to buy the property for $2.7 million in 2008, the SEC said. According to the purchase agreement, Geranio is also the guarantor for $20,000 monthly installment payments to the seller, and full payment is due July 24.

The SEC seeks to recover alleged ill-gotten proceeds from Geranio companies, including BWRE.

Hawaiian Hospitality is obligated to pay BWRE, which is based in Hawaii, about $20,000 a month for rent, but instead has largely issued stock to BWRE, making BWRE a major shareholder in Hawaiian Hospitality, according to the company’s annual reports.

Hawaiian Hospitality reported owing BWRE $166,720 in unpaid rent and a promisory note of $175,858 at the end of last year.

Another major connection between Geranio and Hawaiian Hospitality involves the company’s plan to offer underwater tours through subsidiary Submersible Technical Services Inc.

Hawaiian Hospitality reported purchasing Submersible Technical Services, a Nevada company, using $5 million from Kaleidoscope Real Estate Inc. The deal included a pair of small submarines — a two-seater and a three-seater that Hawaiian Hospitality said were received but not yet certified for use last year.

Kaleidoscope is a Geranio company sued by the SEC in connection with the alleged stock fraud. Hawaiian Hospitality reported owing Kaleidoscope $525,201 at the end of last year for the sub company purchase. The other roughly $4.5 million Hawaiian Hospitality owed Kaleidoscope was satisfied by giving Kaleidoscope 394 million shares of stock in Hawaiian Hospitality, the company reported.

Shares of Hawaiian Hospitality stock aren’t worth much. The company has issued more than 2 billion shares since its founding, and periodically has condensed those shares to boost the value of each remaining share.

Currently there are about 875,000 shares of Hawaiian Hospitality stock outstanding, with each share worth less than one-tenth of a cent, according to Bloomberg. To put it another way, 1 cent was enough to buy 50 shares of Hawaiian Hospitality stock last week. To buy all outstanding shares in the company would cost $175.

At the end of last year, Hawaiian Hospitality reported having one paid employee, Linda Kress, a former claims coordinator with Hono­lulu insurance firm King and Neel Inc. who was named president and CEO in December 2010.

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mkinhaw mkinhaw 12 years ago
More news today

http://www.loansafe.org/north-shore-wedding-venue-linked-to-man-accused-of-fraud

MK
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rudik rudik 12 years ago
If you feel like throw your money away then go for it , they well sell you a coca cola for $10
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Thunder Roswell Thunder Roswell 12 years ago
So, do you have any advice for me? I was planning on having my wedding at Loulu Palm next year. I'm afraid that the estate will no longer be available for events.
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Stock_Barber Stock_Barber 12 years ago
Thanks for sharing! This was one of the most obvious scams out there to piece together! Fortunately, I think many folks got it early and cashed out...

Stickied!

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Thunder Roswell Thunder Roswell 12 years ago
*******HHGI FRAUD******** MUST SEE AND READ!!!!

Article from the Star Advertisers June edition 2012

*HHGI
*LOULU PALM
*BWRE HOLDINGS
*WHO ELSE IS INVOLVED?
*WHO IS THIS HALEIWA MAN? The owner, Nick.

***********MUST READ*****************


[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/82488980@N05/7558733756/][/url]
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/82488980@N05/7558733756/]HHGI_FRAUD[/url] by [url=http://www.flickr.com/people/82488980@N05/]Thunder Roswell[/url], on Flickr



www.flickr.com/photos/82488980@N05/7558733756/sizes/l/in/photostream/


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jimsdoorsmt jimsdoorsmt 12 years ago
my total investment in this stock is now down to "one penny"
that would be funny if it didn't suck so badly for the investors.
noone can even afford to sell it.
I'll just leave it on my portfolio and let it die a slow death.
i read their website where they claim to look out for their investors best interests. It's hilarious....
If i ever get to hawaii i think I'll stay at their place and then steal the towels and skip out on the bill....recoup some of my losses....hahahaha
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rudik rudik 12 years ago
If they do another R/S it would be very funny because my 30 cents became 2 cents :)
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jimsdoorsmt jimsdoorsmt 12 years ago
I wish I had actually gotten the stock certificates, at least i could use them to wipe my ass.
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Stock_Barber Stock_Barber 12 years ago
Looks like someone finally gave up and cashed out their 5000 shares for $3 today.

Imagine what they paid for those...

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rudik rudik 13 years ago
HHGI financialReport

http://www.otcmarkets.com/financialReportViewer?symbol=HHGI&id=82140
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untouchable317 untouchable317 13 years ago
I only lost 500 bucks... Still hurts
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